You can read the transcript in its entirety below, or download it here.
[theme music plays, fades out: The House is Haunted]
Liz: You're listening to Ouija Broads, this is Liz.
Devon: And this is Devon.
Liz: First of all, Devon, you need to know, another foot washed up in Vancouver.
Devon: Oh, God, that's so gross. That's so gross!
Liz: [singing for no reason] They keep coming: more feet!
Devon: No! Noooo... God damn it. Okay, and then what are the, what are the main theories again? About why these feet are washing up? They're in shoes that float?
Liz: Yeah. And if you look at like a scan of a cadaver or even a live body that's wearing clothes and you look at it in terms of gas? You can really see like all the air is on the feet. It's all in those running shoes.
Devon: [unhappy high-pitched noise]
Liz: But we have to also accept that at least one of the feet that's washed up was in a hiking boot.
Devon: Yes.
Liz: Yeah. So that's one of them, is that they will disarticulate, and then, y'know, animals aren't going to chew through all the stuff at the foot. So they-- at the shoe. So they're going to, like... They'll take-- the one that washed up looked like straight-up Looney Tunes, like a shoe and then two beautiful bones coming out of it.
Devon: Oh my God. Oh my God. That's how I draw them. You know, when I need to draw, you know, skeletons wearin' shoes.
Liz: Exactly, yeah. And then I guess the guy-- No, it was it was a dog who found it. I remember it. Let me see, what was what was the dog's name?
Devon: What was the dog's name?
Liz: This is important. Breaking news. Ouija Broads is here for you with this information. I know I tweeted about it so I'm going to dig back and find it.
Devon: [telegraphs going over wires/breaking news sound] Dee-dee-dee-dee-dee!
Liz: [telegraphs going over wires/breaking news sound] Dee-dee-dee-dee-dee! Okay. And it's great because in the picture, the Rottweiler is like bouncing up. Taz!
Devon: [laughs]
Liz: The dog's name is Taz and she's a girl and I love her. She's a beautiful baby.
Devon: Beautiful baby. Yeah.
Liz: She's six.
Devon: Awww.
Liz: And she ran over and found this, and her owner went and found this, uh, tibia and fibula attached to a left foot with a white sock in a black shoe. And what's was great is, Mr. John - Taz's dad - called the police and then he used a stick to pick up the foot.
Devon: All right.
Liz: And carried it back to his property and locked in his greenhouse because he was afraid that a bear or an eagle would get it, or it would wash back into the water.
Devon: Those are all valid concerns.
Liz: Yup. And uh... they said, you know, "FYI... You do not need to do that." [laughs] If you find one...
Devon: You can just let it sit. Well, Liz, I've solved the case. This person was clearly a fashion victim.
Liz: [laughs]
Devon: [talking to herself] That's so disrespectful, Devon, why would you say that?
Liz: Because it's great. It's good. But yeah, the, um... It's unclear. I don't know what's happening, but I love that it's still happening. I mean, we know why a lot of these people died is they, is they jumped into the water themselves.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Or were boating accidents. But why it's feet... I don't know if it's the running shoes thing, or...
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: ...things happening in the tides or maybe we're just really tuned into it and maybe... Maybe our dogs are getting smarter.
Devon: [laughs] Our dogs are getting smarter? I would consider my dog smart if it knew to not bring me dead feet.
Liz: You got to consider all the possibilities. You got to consider your alternative hypotheses.
Devon: [laughing] I don't know what the alternative is.
Liz: That's-- that's the foot update, I don't have any Sasquatch updates.
Devon: [quietly to self] Sasq-watch.
Liz: Okay. Once upon a time, Devon...
Devon: Yes...
Liz: There was a boy named Forrest Fenn and--
Devon: Okay.
Liz: And when Forrest was a little boy, his father and he lived in central Texas and they would go out into the desert and hunt for arrowheads.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: Yeah.
Devon: That's something I would do.
Liz: Yeah! And Forrest found his first one at the age of nine and he became hooked for life.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: Forrest is the topic of this and you'll understand why soon. It's not all in Texas. So, Forrest became a fishing guide when he was about 13 and, like, a hiking guide.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: He was an experienced hiker, and he was an explorer. And then in 1950, he joined the Air Force.
Devon: Oh!
Liz: Not only was this really good for an adrenaline junkie--
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: --but it also gave him an excuse to travel all over the world. So he went to Vietnam, where he was shot down twice.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: He went to Pompeii, where he was kicked out three times, and he explored Libya. He explored the Sahara, which he said he loved because you could see, like, 2000-year-old structures next to a downed German plane from World War Two.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: But his favorite place to explore was Arizona, of all places.
Devon: Oh!
Liz: It is an archeological gem because it's been occupied for so many centuries. They estimated that there are at least five hundred thousand graves in Arizona.
Devon: Are you kidding me?
Liz: No.
Devon: Dang, dude. Half a million graves in Arizona.
Liz: Yeah! Continuously inhabited by humans for many centuries.
Devon: All right.
Liz: Yeah. So Arizona was his jam and he... Well, I'll tell you what he says about himself. "In my mind," he says, "I've always been the best in the world at collecting cool things."
Devon: I want to learn at his feet, because you know how I feel about collecting things that I find on the ground.
Liz: Yes, exactly. Well, his father had a, a saying, which is, "Grab all the bananas."
Devon: [laughs]
Liz: Apparently when Forrest was little he was like, "What does-- what does that mean, Dad?" And he was like, "So life is a train and you're on the train and the train is going to go past the banana tree and you've got to grab all the bananas because you're never going to be back. Every banana you leave on the tree is a banana and you don't have. Grab all the bananas."
Devon: [startled laugh] That's not healthy.
Liz: [negative] Mmhmm. But it will explain a lot about Forrest Fenn.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: [laughs] On this week's episode of Hoarders...
Devon: Yes, exactly. This is a bad idol for me.
Liz: Yes, he's a... He's, he's a complicated character like so many of the people that we discuss.
Devon: Yes.
Liz: Forrest loved exploring Arizona. He dealt with antiquities and artifacts and cool stuff from all over the world. And he actually, in 1972, moved to New Mexico so he'd be close to Arizona. But this was right when the big wave of Southwestern art and interior decor started to show. He's in Santa Fe right as this huge wave hits and he's got connections to all kinds of Indian artists, all kinds of people like Georgia O'Keeffe.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: You know, work in that kind of area. And he has a ton of antiquities. So he can sell you your, you know, legit carving or whatever. He can sell you antiques that are going to go so well, and sell you the turquoise necklace and everything.
Devon: Oh, my God,
Liz: And he becomes a celebrity.
Devon: Really.
Liz: Yeah!
Devon: Okay, all right.
Liz: So Forrest became a celebrity. He sold art and antiquities to celebrities--
Devon: Okay.
Liz: Like Steven Spielberg, like Steve Martin, like John Wayne, like Jackie Kennedy and like Cher, because, you know, Cher's vibe--
Devon: Oh!
Liz: --was like, psychedelic.... [singing in Cher impression] "Half breed--"
Devon: Oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We're in the war bonnets and the fringe and whatever else, she could-- Oh, go for it. Cher, I can't fault ya.
Liz: Yeah, that was Cher's deal.
Devon: That was a good Cher impression!
Liz: Thank you. I usually do terrible impressions. I'm glad I got away with one for a second.
Devon: No, you did it very well.
Liz: So not only was he in the right place at the right time to really capitalize on this trend, but he was just such a larger-than-life person that working with him and buying from him was this, like, full-body fucking experience.
Devon: Oh, really?
Liz: So you would fly in and he would, like, pick you up in a limo. He would put you up in a guest house with, like, gold fixtures.
Devon: What?!
Liz: And you'd come visit his house that was full of beautiful antiquities. That's basically, like, more beautiful than any museum anyway. And--
Devon: Wow.
Liz: He was, you know, a great storyteller, hilarious, a million life experiences... At this point, he had a pet alligator named Beowulf that he used to feed by hand.
Devon: Feed *a* hand.
Liz: Feed *a* hand, yeah. [laughs] Put yourself back in like the 70s and 80s and you're, like, blowin' coke out of a clamshell-- [starts to laugh]
Devon: Yeah, yeah. They did so much coke, dude.
Liz: Yeah. Like, all of this just makes a lot of sense.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: So this is his life through the 70s and 80s and he becomes a very, very rich man and a very well-known man, too like, you know, national celebrity... People... There was a book written about him called... Oh, what the heck was it...? The Codex, which has actually been optioned twice for a movie but never made into it.
Devon: Huh!
Liz: So... Because he has this kind of Indiana Jones thing going on.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Where it's not just... He's not just this dry, dusty guy showing you stuff that's organized in this very particular way.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: He's got a story for every item--
Devon: Yeah!
Liz: And this great energy.
Devon: Okay, I'm going to say that it gets picked up in the next seven years and Leonardo DiCaprio stars as the titular character.
Liz: Interesting. Okay, now you're on record having said that.
Devon: Yup. Done it.
Liz: Well, so here's, here's the second act thing. So we have all the part with Leo's going to be toasting with champagne and hanging out with actresses being Cher and Jackie Kennedy and stuff.
Devon: Yup.
Liz: And then in 1987, his father died.
Devon: Oh.
Liz: So Mr. Grab-All-The-Bananas had pancreatic cancer.
Devon: [sympathetic] Yeah.
Liz: He took a heavy dose of sleeping pills because he was like, I'm out.
Devon: Okay, that's fair.
Liz: That was 1987. In 1988. Forrest himself was diagnosed with kidney cancer and they gave him little chance of survival. So he actually beat the cancer. Forrest is still alive today, but those two things so close together got him thinking about what he wanted his legacy to be.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: So one thing he came up with was burying bronze bells that contain his life story inside them. So he's done that. He's put eight of them in the ground so far.
Devon: Uhhh... as surprises for people to find?
Liz: I think so. I only found this bit in, in one, uh, article about him. Maybe if I had gotten his book, I would know more.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: But you can kind of see how he got there of like, you know, "I spent all my time looking at stuff from people who are long dead. What are people going to find when I'm long dead?"
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: So this is where he comes up with the idea to bury a hidden treasure.
Devon: Oh, cool.
Liz: So he takes an old bronze chest and he puts in gold nuggets, antique coins, pre-Colombian jewelry, rare gems and a copy of his autobiography, of course. And when he thought he was dying, his original plan was he and the treasure would both be in the same place. So anyone who found the treasure would find his bones, too.
Devon: Ugh.
Liz: But he outlived the cancer. So the treasure chest just like sat around in his house for twenty years, but it's not over. Around 2010, he started feeling his mortality again. So he's in his 80s at this point...
Devon: Okay.
Liz: And he goes out and buries the treasure chest somewhere in the Rocky Mountains.
Devon: Oh, my gosh.
Liz: Then he publishes a book called The Thrill of the Chase, which tells about his life and also includes a poem with nine clues to the location of the treasure.
Devon: [excited gasp] Are you kidding me?
Liz: I am not. [laughs]
Devon: I'm going to find it now. Oh, my God.
Liz: Here's-- here's the poem so that you can get started.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: And it's not the best poem we've ever read on the show, but less racist than most of them.
Devon: Well... low bar.
Liz: I know.
Devon: It is.
Liz: [laughs] "As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold / I can keep my secret where and hint of riches, new and old / Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down / Not far but too far to walk, put in below the home of Brown." And Brown is capitalized from there. "It is no place for the meek / the end is drawing ever nigh / there will be no paddle up your creek / just heavy loads and water high. If you've been wise and found the blaze / look quickly down, your quest to seize / But tarry scant with marvel gaze / just take the chest and go in peace / so why is it that I must go / and leave my trove for all to seek? / The answers I already know / I've done it tired and now I'm weak / so hear me all and listen good / your effort will be worth the cold / if you are brave and in the wood / I give you title to the gold."
Devon: I have chills.
Liz: Yes! He wrote a poem, there's nine clues in there, and he's given a couple of additional clues over the years because this was about seven years ago.
Devon: Right.
Liz: Okay, what we know is it's somewhere in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming or Montana. So it's in our Ouija Broads area.
Devon: Okay
Liz: It's above five thousand feet in elevation, but below ten thousand two hundred feet.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: It's in an area with pine trees. It's not in a graveyard, a mine or another manmade structure. It's not in close proximity to a human trail and it's not a place an 80 year old man couldn't go. So... [laughs]
Devon: Wow!
Liz: That's part of his hint is he's like, "I was 80 when I planted this 40 pound box. Work backward from there." And he certainly knows the area very well, but it's probably not you know, you've got a free climb up a sheer cliff face or something.
Devon: Right. Right. Okay.
Liz: Yeah.
Devon: Ooh.
Liz: And thousands of people have gone hunting for the treasure.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: None of them successfully. Nobody has found it so far. He estimates about sixty-five thousand people.
Devon: No fucking way.
Liz: Yeah, it's a hugely lively thing on the Internet, obviously. Tons of forums, tons of people who when you're like, "Okay, I'm going to try to solve it," they're like, "All right, well, we already figured all this out. So don't do that. Don't do this."
Devon: Okay.
Liz: "We've tried this. We've tried that."
Devon: Okay.
Liz: Insider knowledge. Everybody is convinced they have the solution and everybody else is wrong, obviously.
Devon: Right.
Liz: And then, you know, everybody goes out and they try... [laughs] They try it, they try their solution and they don't find it. And people are interested in this all over the world, too. So there were people who would--
Devon: Oh!
Liz: Make their solve and then fly from England and fly from Japan to try to find the treasure.
Devon: Wow.
Liz: Yeah.
Devon: Wow, okay.
Liz: He says one of the reasons why he hid it in 2010 is because it was the Great Recession?
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: He wanted to cheer people up and get them off their couches and going outside.
Devon: Oh my God, it's like Pokémon Go!
Liz: Yes! [laughs]
Devon: "The world's going to shit, get outside right now and play a game!" [excited gasp] Oh my gosh. Okay, so do you... Thinking of these, these clues, do you have any ideas? I mean honestly, I don't know those areas well enough. You know, it's a little more South-Western.
Liz: Yeah.
Devon: Than-- yeah. I mean like if-- "The home of Brown. Okay, well, there-- there's got to be a town, or there was an explorer named Brown that settled there or there's Mount Brown or something, but like it's not Washington or Oregon, so I can't come up with it off the top of my head
Liz: Yeah. Well, one of the solves for that actually is that people speculate he might be talking about Leadville, Colorado, which is where the unsinkable Molly Brown was from.
Devon: Oh, okay.
Liz: But of course, there's a million interpretations for every one of these.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: One of the things we do know is he's like, "This is something that a bright kid could solve." This is not, like numerology or a cipher. Like clues are the clues.
Devon: The clues are what they are. Okay.
Liz: Yeah. So he's still around...
Devon: Okay.
Liz: He is 86 and he has a home full of treasure. So among the things he owns right now are Sitting Bull's peace pipe.
Devon: Oh wow.
Liz: And a mummified falcon from King Tut's tomb.
Devon: What the fuck?
Liz: So, maybe we should talk a little bit about the shady part.
Devon: Mmmm.
Liz: I've got to do the shady part.
Devon: Yeah, we do.
Liz: So he is currently under investigation by the FBI for grave robbing.
Devon: Yeah, I bet he is.
Liz: Yeah, it's been going on for a couple of years. Neither party will really comment on it. He was not the only one they targeted, but an undercover agent walked through his house and got the tour and then they opened a case on him.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Yup. The reason he got kicked out of Pompei three times was he was stealing artifacts.
Devon: You know, I bet he was
Liz: So one of the things that makes it a little bit of a gray area is a lot of his early collecting was done in the days before it was explicitly illegal to do some of this stuff?
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Like, it's been illegal to remove stuff from public lands for a while.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: But this was not in the time when we understood or, y'know-- "we." This was not the time when white folks legally understood how appalling it was to pillage Native ruins.
Devon: Yeah, there you go.
Liz: Yeah. So I can't prove any of that. I think he certainly has told plenty of stories to plenty of people about his escapades.
Devon: Oh, yeah.
Liz: Shady, iffy stuff. And he certainly has a lot around him that might be of questionable provenance. And that always happens to a certain degree when you're an archeological collector, I think, is, uh... the black market is very lively.
Devon: Yes, absolutely it is.
Liz: Yeah, so I can't prove any of that. But what I do know is, he actually owns his own Arizona ruin. An archaeological National Historic Landmark.
Devon: Oh, wow!
Liz: I don't know you could do that in the U.S., but you can if you're rich enough.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: That... That quote really could go anywhere.
Devon: Couldn't it?
Liz: "I didn't know you could do that in the U.S., but you can if you're rich enough." He owns the San Lazaro Pueblo, which is 65 hectares in the Galisteo Basin south of Santa Fe that has a prehistoric pueblo site that the Tanno tribe, or Taino tribe settled about seven hundred years ago. So it was a pueblo that grew to more than two thousand rooms.
Devon: Damn!
Liz: And about three hundred years ago, the European army showed up-- [catches self, repeats sarcastically] "the European army," but like, Europeans showed up.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Specifically, I think it was the Spanish at the time and people left. So it's almost like a Marie Celeste thing, like they left a lot of their stuff because they left in such a hurry.
Devon: Oh, okay.
Liz: And he owns it, and he's been excavating it.
Devon: This is a cultural heritage site that a private citizen owns and is excavating!
Liz: Yep. It's a national historic landmark that he's going through bit by bit.
Devon: Not going to end poorly at all.
Liz: Nope. Well, he's turned up ancient gaming pieces, jewelry, and a plaster mask
Devon: Okay.
Liz: And cool things like that. He says it's kind of a retreat for him, like it's a place for him to get away? But you know, he loves to dig. He loves the treasure hunt.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: So he found, you know, old arrows and a shattered mission bell and all kinds of stuff like that.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: And he basically said-- there's a state archeologist for New Mexico who has been invited there and has seen him doing his stuff, and he says it is like a drug high for this guy.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Like, he does not know how to *not* do this.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: But even here, it's hard to tell whether this has crossed any legal lines. So 22 years ago, New Mexico said you've been disturbing graves on the pueblo.
Devon: Yes.
Liz: There are human remains that are piled and scattered around.
Devon: Oh, yeah.
Liz: Because if people have been living in an area for seven hundred years, they've been dying in an area for seven hundred years.
Devon: Yes.
Liz: But the complaint got thrown out because they trespassed to collect that evidence.
Devon: [disgusted] Oh.. Mark Fuhrman-ing it. Jesus Christ.
Liz: Fruit of the poisonous tree!
Devon: Yeah, yeah!
Liz: Yeah. So here's Fenn's logic. "The key word in the law is discover. We found bones that might have been human, but we didn't discover that they were. So we covered them up and moved someplace else."
Devon: [skeptical] Mmmm...
Liz: Do you detect that distinction? I didn't.
Devon: [still skeptical] Mmmm... Wow. All right.
Liz: Yeah. So, uh [laughs] One of the reporters who went out and visited him said, you know, there's basically there's his property and there's a barbed wire fence and then there's federal property on the other side.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: So, you know, they went through the pueblo and picked up, you know, bone pieces and beads and turquoise and all this kind of stuff.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: And the reporter pointed over to the stuff on the other side of the fence and he said, "What's the difference between here and there?" And Fenn said, "18 months in jail and a ten thousand dollar fine."
Devon: [laughing]
Liz: So I don't think he's in any, uh, ambiguity about whether what he's doing is considered illegal if he did it someplace else?
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: But I think he feels like he's figured out where he can do this legally enough.
Devon: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Liz: You know, he's still under investigation by the FBI for other stuff.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Or possibly for this, I'm not sure because the FBI won't comment on it.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: So among the things that are happening because of his involvement with the San Lazaro Pueblo, descendants of the people who used to live there, pray for him because the head of the National Congress of the American Indian said that collectors like him are cursed.
Devon: [gasps]
Liz: You gotta have a curse!
Devon: Oh, you've got to have a curse.
Liz: Exactly. This story has it all. Buried treasure, curses...
Devon: Yeah!
Liz: Yeah. So is he cursed? I don't know. He got cancer, but he survived cancer.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: His dad died. But, you know, that unfortunately comes to most of us unless we go first. He's rich. He's pretty famous.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: He's lived to his 80s. He looks pretty healthy from the photos I saw of him.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: I can't tell if it's just how he is, but he's got a little bit of that Kenny Rogers tightness to his face.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: But you know... yeah.
Devon: That sun-weathered old man. Is it plastic surgery or is it just leather skin?
Liz: He looks a little taut, he looks a little shiny.
Devon: Gotcha.
Liz: Yeah, but not everybody around him has been so lucky. So two people who have been targeted in the same case as him actually have committed suicide and Fenn says that the FBI is responsible for that.
Devon: Ooh.
Liz: Because they've been targeted by this and two people, possibly three, have died searching for the treasure.
Devon: Really.
Liz: I say possibly three, because no body has been found.
Devon: Oh, shit.
Liz: You know, the person was out there looking for the treasure, and then they disappeared, and they haven't been heard from since.
Devon: Oh...
Liz: Not great.
Devon: No... He dead.
Liz: Yeah. So some people have said, "You've got to cancel the hunt, man. Like, this is irresponsible. People are going out there, they're getting hurt. They're dying. This is-- you're creating an attractive nuisance, basically endangering people's lives." And what he points out is more people die at the Grand Canyon every year, like...
Devon: Yup.
Liz: Yeah. So twelve people-- I looked this up. Annually on average., twelve people die at the Grand Canyon every year. And in the seven years, almost eight that this has been going, maybe three people died.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: I think it's not bad for something that it brings sixty five thousand people into the mountains. That-- mountains are serious business, you know!
Devon: Yeah. Presumably--
Liz: Not infinitely forgiving. It's not Disneyland. Probably more people die at Disneyland.
Devon: Probably more people do die of, like, heatstroke and whatever. I mean, if you-- I know he's an 80 year old man and he said, like, "How far could an 80 year old dude get in the woods?" But he also said he was away from-- didn't he say it was away from a major road? That it was--
Liz: Yeah, he said it wasn't by a human trail.
Devon: Human trail. Okay, so still, you know... He's hiking maximum, I assume, two days. I figure it's less than 15 miles from a human trail. Could be right off a game trail, I guess, like...
Liz: Yeah.
Devon: But it's still enough of a, of a journey, it's enough of a hardship that you figure the people that are doing this at least kind of know what they're doing, and if they decide, if they decide to take that risk, they take that risk.
Liz: Right. It's not like it's a radio stunt promotion or something.
Devon: Yeah
Liz: Where you, like, drink a bunch of stuff and you just spur of the moment decided to do this.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Like, you really need to plan! Especially-- One of the things he said is that, if he were where the treasure was, he talked about, you know, "I'd be smelling sagebrush and pine," I think is what he said?
Devon: Okay.
Liz: But people also know the treasure was wet. So sometimes people are looking under waterfalls or in creeks or rivers or--
Devon: Okay.
Liz: Or diving for it, because you know, what's to say he didn't dive?
Devon: [dubious hum] I don't... You know, he says... I pulled up the, I pulled up the poem, so, you know, "begin it where the warm waters halt." And he talks later about a creek. But he says "there'll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high." So I assume it's like a dry creek bed.
Liz: Could be--
Devon: Under...
Liz: Or one that you can't paddle.
Devon: So like a, a shallow one
Liz: Shallow or too narrow or too rocky or something.
Devon: Okay, okay. So I could see that
Liz: Maybe it's not a creek at all.
Devon: Yeah. I don't think he's-- I don't think he dove. That's my thought.
Liz: But everything is too, you know... You can interpret it a lot of ways.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Is "where warm waters halt," does that mean where the water gets cold or does it mean that, like, it's where all the warm water is and that's where the water stays? Or is it something to do with weather?
Devon: Mmhmm.
Liz: And what is the blaze? Why is Brown capitalized?
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: I don't know.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Everybody's got it figured out, and so far nobody's got it figured it out. There's been a lot of confident people out there.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: I mean, one other thing that I'll point out about the whole death thing is at least one person, Fenn says, contacted him and said "I was suicidal and this treasure hunt gave me a reason to live."
Devon: Oh, wow.
Liz: I bet they're not the only one, too.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: That would be... If you had nothing else going on in your life, really, I could see this being a fantastic thing to do.
Devon: Absolutely, right?
Liz: Go out there and, like, study it and get involved and, I don't know... It gets you out of the house!
Devon: It gets you out of the house! I mean, like I said, just like Pokémon Go, man. Like it's going to get you out. It's going to get you movin'. It's going to get you seeing nature. It's going to get your brain working in interesting ways.
Liz: Yeah! One of the reasons why I like it relative to, for instance, a lot of the treasures that are lost that we put on our Lost Things of Washington map-- available on Etsy.
Devon: Yes. Good plug.
Liz: [laughs] A lot of those are from like, one hundred years ago, one hundred thirty years ago. So whatever landmarks were in place then have been changed by human development and erosion and...
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Plants growing, plants disappearing. This is like... He's around and he's clarifying, and he's like, "Yeah, I didn't mean that. Yes, I did mean something like this. No, it's not a numerical code."
Devon: Wow.
Liz: All this kind of stuff. So he doesn't really give out a ton of hints, but he does occasionally give out clues. If you just e-mail him and ask for a clue, he won't give you anything.
Devon: Okay.
Liz: And he'll call 911 if you show up to his house.
Devon: Good man. You're supposed to do that.
Liz: Yeah, but he's pretty engaged in this whole treasure hunt. And I kind of love that. Like, I think it's... You've got to set aside the whole sketchy provenance of probably most or some of his treasure, including probably some of what's in the treasure chest.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: But if we put a pin in that and say, yes, okay, that's not all right... But, man, a treasure hunt, a legit treasure hunt!
Devon: A legit modern treasure hunt with the equivalent of a map.
Liz: Yeah. And a poem. A, a confusing allegorical poem.
Devon: That's fantastic. Oh, wow.
Liz: That's what people should do.
Devon: God, right?
Liz: Don't put it in bonds or whatever.
Devon: No! Boring!
Liz: Another gold toilet!
Devon: You don't need that! Boring!
Liz: Yeah.
Devon: I'm-- I'm super interested in his, in his Native American artifacts, because, of course, NAGPRA is now such a big deal, and that's the area of museum studies that I actually really wanted to specialize in, but couldn't, couldn't find the schooling that I wanted at the time. And it's kind of a sensitive subject. I mean, the majority of folks in museums who are working for NAGPRA reasons-- and NAGPRA is the Native American Graves [Protection and] Repatriation Act--
Liz: Thank you, I was about to ask.
Devon: It's since-- I think it was like 1990 was when this was started. It's fairly recent, but it means that any items in America that are in possession of museums or that are found now and they are certain ceremonial objects or they are human remains or related to a grave? So it could be a fetish that was buried specifically with a dead person. You know, you don't find the remains, but you find this totem. It has to go back to the graves. And there are certain ways that you repatriate it. The biggest one that people will know, of course, is Kennewick Man, how he was...
Liz: I was going to say, do you want to talk about Kennewick Man on this episode?
Devon: Yeah, I could talk a little bit about it. I don't know a ton about it, but I think it's really fascinating that it was such a... It was such a contentious thing and I kind of, I kind of, I mean, I get it, but I also don't get it. There's-- I'm really split on my thoughts on, on The Ancient One, as he's known now, as opposed to Kennewick Man.
Devon: But I... [sighs] I understand the importance of having funerary items from various cultures on display, but I also do think that if you have an existing culture, that you have items from, that their thoughts on your display or interpretation are probably paramount.
Liz: Yep.
Devon: The Burke Museum is Washington State's museum, and that's the one that, [I] did a little bit of work for like my my collections internship? My collections class was through them? So I helped catalog one of their really boring collections, you know, just one of the thousands that they have that some white guy in the 70s was like, "Cool, here's all my archaeological stuff. All this is important. Yay!" And luckily, he was one of the guys that took really good notes. So you have the the provenance and provenience of these items.
Liz: Say those two words again?
Devon: Yeah, they're different. Provenance and provenience. And because I'm on air, I'm having a super senior moment. And one of them is the... One of them is like, the detailed history. Where was it found, and where has it been in every moment of time from the point it was found to now? And what's the history of it?
Liz: Ohhh.
Devon: And then the other one is just like, where was it found?
Liz: Okay.
Devon: And I forget the distinction, and I should know that because I had to take a test on that.
Liz: That makes a lot of sense to me. Let's kind of fill in a little background for people who aren't familiar, because I remember when they found Kennewick Man.
Devon: Yeah!
Liz: It was, yeah, after we moved out here, but there were two guys... I should call him The Ancient One, huh?
Devon: Well, yeah. I mean, I guess because that's the Native American preference and he's now been proven to be of Native American ancestry. So I would say The Ancient One.
Liz: Okay.
Devon: But people know what you mean when they say Kennewick Man.
Liz: Yeah. Wikipedia thinks he's Kennewick Man.
Devon: Wikipedia sure does.
Liz: But there were these guys who were near the Columbia River and about 10 feet from shore. They found part of a human skull, which is... At least it wasn't a foot. But people dug into it and they found this nearly complete, really old skeleton.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: And one of the reasons why it became more famous than other sets of ancient remains is that one archaeologist said, "I think these might not be Native American bones."
Devon: Yes.
Liz: "They might be Caucasian bones."
Devon: Yes.
Liz: Which, given that these were older than nine thousand years old, would really rewrite our understanding of who was where, when.
Devon: Yes.
Liz: As it turned out, once people actually sequenced the DNA... No, this was an ancient Native American man. But it was also, you know, in the middle of this tension and this discussion that was heating u p from, you know... So NAGPRA passed in 1990, right? So it was pretty fresh. And what the scientists were arguing is that you can't prove that this is related to any modern day tribe.
Devon: Correct.
Liz: Like in the 90s, we're not sequencing genomes.
Devon: Correct.
Liz: And it went all the way to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and they said, "Look, we can't establish that these are Native American remains. We just know these are remains." So it went and was at the Burke Museum, right?
Devon: Yes. Yes.
Liz: And they did scientific study on it.
Devon: Well, they-- the scientific study they could do was extremely limited because the Native Americans, when they were doing this lawsuit to try to get control of the remains, had, had put... They made it so that the court, like, this lawsuit made it so that you couldn't really touch the remains. Burke wasn't necessarily doing the studies? They were just-- They're the Washington State repository. So it was, they were kind of like they were kind of like... You know, in divorce where like a lawyer will be like "Not the husband or the wife gets the car. Right now, the car goes to a third party and it sits and no one fucking drives it until I figure out which one of you gets it in the divorce." So that's what the Burke did. They held onto it. And if they had court orders that said the Native Americans got to come visit him, which they did, you know, the Burke tried very hard. There was... I mean, in the early years, there was bad blood, man, and I get it. But they did try in later years to be very accommodating and let the tribe come in and do ceremonies and, and, you know, visit The Ancient One. And... But at the same time, if you've got a court order saying this group of scientists gets to come in and take, you know, this centimeter square of fabric sample, they have to honor that as well because it's not theirs. They're just holding it. They're the pawn shop that's keeping care of it as best as they can until the courts decide.
Liz: It says here they never displayed him, either. It was private...
Devon: No, no. He was never displayed. Mmhmm.
Liz: Yeah. So, wow. Yeah. It looks like he was kind of a, a test case in some ways and really established stuff.
Devon: Yeah, definitely.
Liz: He didn't go home until this year, it looks like, right?
Devon: Uh, yeah, so he was, yeah, reburied in... It was 2016 or 2017, he was turned over to the tribes.
Liz: Yeah, they signed... Uh, Patty Murray and Denny Heck did legislation to return him to the tribe once it was proven that he was Native American and they signed that-- [corrects self] no, Obama signed that on December 16th, 2016. Um... [quietly] God, it's been a long year.
Devon: It's been a long year
Liz: Oh, my God.
Devon: So long, dude...
Liz: Today's December 18th.
Devon: Oh, my God.
Liz: Of 2017.
Devon: I know, right? Right. Yes, it was. And it was. You're right, it was this year. It was, it was around my birthday this year. It was just this year. Oh, my God. It was ten months ago that he was handed over to a delegation from, like, the Yakama and Nez Perce and a couple other tribes that now call this area home, which, if I recall, was also, you know-- And like the Colville and stuff like that. And if I recall, that was also really a point of, of people who wanted to keep The Ancient One as Kennewick Man and do scientific studies were super like, [annoying voice] "Well, he's not even related to those tribes because like, those were Oklahoman Indians and they got put on the reservation out here in Washington. So he's not like even really--" I don't know why it's a valley girl now all of a sudden. But it was it was people that were saying, "Like, okay, so, fine. he's, he's related to Native American tribes. But how do you know which one? Because those people were originally from the Midwest and then they got relocated out here." And it's like, are you fucking serious? Like, we still have a Salish population. We still have a Yakama population, we still have a Colville. And, and just because those tribes were forcibly integrated into reservations doesn't mean they don't have a claim to him, you know?
Liz: Yeah. I mean, I can kind of see the argument with the Nez Perce, given that they were, you know, pretty much just shuffled west and north until they're on the rez...
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: But...
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: I don't know why "We done fucked up real bad a while ago" is good logic for "Let's continue to fuck up real bad right now."
Devon: Right?
Liz: That one is on us. I'm sure they would prefer to be like, "Yes, in fact we have lived here for seven hundred years."
Devon: Yes.
Liz: And we can prove that that's... yeah.
Devon: Yes.
Liz: Sometimes only your only options are to move forward with a little more compassion and dignity than you had the day before.
Devon: Right? Oh, my God. That's all you can do. I definitely wish... I think we could have learned a lot from the Ancient One's further study? And I wish that there had been a better relationship from the beginning. [sighs] But I don't think you could have even had the best relationship possible between the Native Americans and the Army Corps of Engineers, which is who he, I guess 'belonged to' when he was discovered, technically, like they they claim it, you know, as a, as an ancient discovery on these lands? Native American funerary rites for at least those tribes means, you know, you, you don't... doesn't matter how old he is, you don't dissect him. Doesn't matter how old he is, you don't take fabric samples. You, you re-inter the bones or you, you do whatever the burial process is again and you let it be.
Liz: Mmhmm.
Devon: And so my-- I don't know. I remember when he was found and before he was considered Native American, like I was definitely, "Oh, my God. Like, let's just learn what we can about him and then do a ceremony," which is... I mean, I'm, I'm thinking those thoughts from a place of privilege, but also that's how I feel about my own bones, you know? Where I'm just like, "I don't care. Take whatever you need. Give the organs to people, kind of chop up the other little bits, if that's helpful. And then the rest, I don't know, feed it to a tree."
Liz: Yeah, but it's interesting because I think we're both from a culture that doesn't prioritize ancestors very much?
Devon: Yeah
Liz: Unless they, like, did something cool--
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Or memorable. We're just kinda like, "I don't know."
Liz: Yeah, I was in an argument with Matt the other day and I don't remember what I was arguing about, but I said, "Matt, no woman in my family has ever admitted she was wrong for 20 generations and that's why they burned us as witches."
Devon: [laughing]
Liz: And he said, is that true? And I said, "No, she was hanged."
Devon: [cackling happily]
Liz: It did happen!
Devon: You walked into it!
Liz: He walked straight into it! But I do know, like, yes, I had an ancestor who was burned-- no, hanged as a witch--
Devon: Hanged as a witch.
Liz: My grandma found that out when she got super into genealogy. But, like, that's all I know about it, right?
Devon: That's amazing.
Liz: I don't have a, um, you know, any kind of tablet with her name. I'm not responsible for that. Or what the heck is the day of the dead Mexican thing? It's on the tip of my tongue. The... ofrenda!
Devon: Yes. Si. La ofrenda.
Liz: The ofrenda. I don't have an ofrenda or anything. Did you see Coco?
Devon: No, is it worth seeing?
Liz: [noncommittal] Eh... see it on a plane.
Devon: Yeah, there you go. I'll watch it on a plane.
Liz: It's fine.
Devon: I got a five hour plane ride tomorrow, friends. I'll watch it on the plane.
Liz: But with the whole bones thing, um... I'm glad I really took control of the conversation, so I could say "um" so firmly.
Devon: Yeah, I'm glad you did.
Liz: Yeah. With the whole bones thing, I think we can't do it without context. And I think Kennewick Man was all of 100 years away from us putting Indians in zoos.
Devon: Yes.
Liz: And on display at expositions.
Devon: Yes.
Liz: So let's err on the side of not being dicks, which is like, hey, do we turn these remains over to a state in an area where they still have smoke-shop Indians outside of stores? Or do we give it back to people more closely related to him who would really like to just put him back in the ground peacefully and say "Thanks for surviving and passing on your genetics so that we could be here today?"
Liz: Right. Because, is there a line in archeology-- you're more likely to know this-- of like, when remains... When does it stop being grave robbing?
Devon: Right? When does it stop being grave robbing? And I don't know. And that's why everybody should take a museum ethics class, which I couldn't take because my schedule didn't agree with it. I also couldn't take the legal issues in museums class, which would have been fascinating, and that's where you talk about like Elgin Marbles and all that shit.
Liz: Yeah.
Devon: But yeah, it's like, "Vintage is seventy five years old, antique is one hundred to one hundred and fifty years old, depending on if it's furniture or textiles." And then yeah. Like when... Like you said, when am I doing science and when am I doing illegals.
Liz: Yeah.
Devon: I guess they're not mutually exclusive, but exactly--
Liz: Well...
Devon: Like you said, when is grave-robbing and when is it excavation?
Liz: Of any two hosts of a show that we're actually-- because, like, I consider myself a scientist--
Devon: Mmhmm.
Liz: And I have not done, like, direct biomedical research on people.
Devon: Right.
Liz: But I have had to learn a lot about the ethics of human experimentation.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: And I think when a society is going off the rails, a lot of times it justifies what it's doing with science--
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: --and we've got a pretty bad track record about that.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: We like to justify that we're doing a lot of things for science. And although I love science, science is real, science is important... Science is not inherently ethical.
Devon: No, God no.
Liz: Nor is it apolitical. So--
Devon: Nope!
Liz: So, I think we need to be considerate, and when we're trying to promote justice... One of the principles of justice in ethics is that burdens and benefits aren't disproportionately allocated.
Devon: Mmhmm.
Liz: I think Kennewick Man and/or the Ancient One is a pretty clear case of all, the harm was going one direction and all the benefit was going a different direction.
Devon: Absolutely. What fucking benefit were the tribes going to see from any fucking experiment we did with him? I mean, like in general? Sure. Maybe there's something that we find out that, I don't know, we rediscover penicillin or some bullshit like that. and then the, y'know, the the water table for everyone rises. That's great. We all benefit. But no, I definitely think we did the right thing by repatriating those remains. You were talking-- and I'm not trying to change the subject, but you were talking about Mr. Fenn having stuff from Egypt, and that's another really cool story about the Burke that I'm pretty sure I'm able to share, so I'm going to. So, sorry, Burke if I wasn't supposed to. But it's-- I mean, it's kind of common knowledge that the Burke has an Egyptian mummy and the Egyptian mummy was displayed in the early days of the Burke because back in the 1900s they had a wealthy benefactor that-- Any museum's benefactor that was wealthy, their big thing was like, "You aren't a real museum unless you have an Egyptian mummy."
Liz: Oh, yeah!
Devon: Yeah! Dudeguy went over to Africa, went to Egypt, went, "I like that sarcophagus. I like that mummy, but fuck, it's missing its feet. So take the feet from that mummy over there that's broken. Put it together, these three disparate things. Pack them up, ship them to the Burke." The Burke had it, they put it on display for a while and then they went, "You know, this actually isn't in keeping with our mission, vision and values anymore. We are for... By and for Washington State. We don't need these human remains on display or anything." So the mummy is in... I've seen it. It's in a very beautiful climate-controlled display case. The mummy is kept separate, uh, from the sarcophagus because those two things, human remains and wood, need different kinds of environments. Amazing, isn't it? They need different microclimates. So they're kept. And every ten years or so, the Burke tries to repatriate these human remains to Egypt. And the Egyptian government goes, "You know, we've got so many mummies over here... Just keep it. We're not worried."
Liz: [laughs]
Devon: And the Burke is like, "Okay, you don't understand. Like, we need to deaccession this, we need... But we can't just... You don't just deaccession a mummy! You... We really need to give this back to you so that you can bury it properly? So that you can have it? For you guys? It's not right for our country to have this dead person that-- well, two dead people, part of one part of the other."
Liz: Oh!
Devon: There's where your feet are coming from.
Liz: Feet! [unintelligible]
Devon: It all ties together, folks.
Liz: The mummy is searching for her feet.
Devon: She's trying to find them. The part of the museum, the part of the collections where I worked. Which is where? Other funerary objects and remains and things like that are kept, it's in the the anthropological collection area, there are some people who are very willing to talk about that area and others who were just like, fuck you, I don't want to talk about it at all. But there are there was one woman that worked there the year before I was, who couldn't go in that room because whenever she went in, there would fall. You'd hear stuff in cabinets, topple over boxes, would pop open like just fall and pop open. And they were all like, okay, well, we can explain it, you know, that it wasn't secured. But she felt like the ghosts in that room that these objects didn't like her and she had, you know, bad juju as far as they were concerned. And so she didn't go in that room anymore because every time she did, shit acted up.
That makes sense to me that are in a room anymore, if that's what happened. Oh, man. And it was all underground. I mean, the Burke is in there doing their great rebuild. They're going to have open collections spaces, visible collection spaces, and some of it, which I think is fascinating. But right now, it's all underground in a building that was built, you know what, 50 years ago, 70 years ago. It's creepy as fuck down there in collections.
Liz: Oh, I bet, yeah. It's got to be like the end of Raiders or whatever.
Devon: Oh, yeah!
Liz: Where...
Devon: Yeah, yeah.
Liz: It's just boxes and crap.
Devon: But with lower ceilings and fluorescent lights.
Liz: Delightful.
Devon: Yeah.
Liz: Oh my God.
Devon: Yeah.
You always-- you end up working cooler places.
Devon: I want to get back into working for a museum where I feel like I'm doing that, so bad. I love my museum right now but we have no collection.
Liz: Mm.
Devon: Y'know, the building is the collection which is cool but like, I want treasures. Liz, I love treasures. I'm so glad you brought me this story because I love treasures.
Liz: [unintelligible] treasure. All we have where I work is... There are cadavers on campus.
Devon: Mmhmm!
Liz: And I won't put them on Front Street, but I'll just say there's one building that has elevators that are a lot bigger than the elevators in the other buildings. And if you picture a gurney, you can understand--
Devon: Yup.
Liz: And there's actually in another building, there's animal testing that goes on, and I think they keep that on the down-low a lot.
Devon: I bet they do.
Liz: But there's also a building-- [suddenly hushed voice] Secrets of WSU Spokane!
Devon: [spooky voice] Secrets!
Liz: There's a building that does fire drills without the sound because the sound is upsetting to the little micies or whatever.
Devon: The little research animals?
Liz: Yeah!
Devon: Oh, gosh.
Liz: Yeah, they don't want to stress them out.
Devon: Oh, gosh.
Liz: So they just come around and say, "We're having a fire drill."
Devon: Gently, they gently--
Liz: [in background] Woop... woop... woop... it's the sound of the police.
Devon: [laughing] It's some guy's job to go through and quietly play Mozart. And that's your fire drill signal.
Liz: Oh my God. Now it just makes me think of one of the Jack the Ripper victims. I think it was Mary Eddings who had been arrested earlier in the evening for being drunk and disorderly and impersonating a fire engine.
Devon: [laughing ruefully] That's why he killed her. "No! Annoying!"
Liz: "Annoying! Rude! I'm trying to do my animal experiments over here!"
Devon: "Rude, damn it!"
Liz: "[I'm trying to] make them push a lever and get a pellet... Now, all they're doing is listening to you."
Devon: "I've had enough of you, Mary!"
Liz: Oh, my God. That's-- Yeah, that's the treasure story I wanted to bring to you because it had lots of nice juicy details.
Devon: Oh, my God.
Liz: And a curse and all that kind of good stuff. Not just what we've got with some of the ones on the map, which basically what we've put in the text of the map is what we know, which is: There some gold. There's a lost mine. There's-- I do like the Old Spaniard's Mine one, which is-- He was the one where he would ride into town on his mule and then he would put the shoes on the mule backward, so you couldn't follow his tracks.
Devon: God bless him.
Liz: I think you illustrated that one with a little horseshoe.
Devon: I did. I did. Just follow him backward. Just go the other direct-- I don't get it. It's not hard.
Liz: Just mule-jack him with a gun and say, "Hey, José, knock that shit off. Take me to where the gold is."
Devon: "Tell me right now, you and your backwards mule." I like mule-jacking as a euphemism. I'm not going to tell you what it's a euphemism for.
Liz: Oh, Lord. I'm terrified.
Devon: It sounds great, doesn't it?
Liz: Yeah. Well, that's when you tell an old Spanish miner that you've had enough of this Inspector Gadget--
Devon: [laughing]
Liz: --Scooby Doo situation that you're using to hide your gold.
Devon: [laughing] Like when Doctor Venture... "I call them sneakies!"
Liz: [laughing]
Devon: "Shoes where the sole spins around so the Russians can't follow ya!"
Liz: [happy sigh] That's the story of Fenn's treasure, and I will definitely tell people, I'll tell you on the show and everybody who listens.. If anybody finds it-- they still could! Somebody is going to find it. Maybe it'll be 9000 years from now.
Devon: It's going to be me, because this is my new obsession.
Liz: All right. Well, get on it. And don't-- don't tell us your solve, because then everybody's going to rush out and do it.
Devon: I'll tell you my solve, because this is how we're going to pay to continue Ouija Broads into the future.
Liz: Cool! All right. Well, until that comes into play, I would suggest that people go over to our Patreon at patreon.com/ouijabroads.
Devon: Yes, please.
Liz: Did you like that transition?
Devon: It's really good. Did I set that up for you, or did I set that up for you?
Liz: That's how you like it.
Devon: That is how I like it.
Liz: That's beautiful. I am very grateful for the supporters that we have so far. And if you do join us over there, you're going to get to see some cool stuff. We just today taped ourselves playing the Oregon Trail game. It was really fun.
Devon: That was great. Shout out to patron Lucille, who got to be one of our characters.
Liz: Yeah, you can get the séance. You can get all our outtakes and our lists and our thoughts and our-- whatever is going into the world, you will find it on our Patreon. That got way off track, sorry.
Devon: Yeah, I love it.
Liz: You can also join us on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter...
Devon: Yes.
Liz: ...at Ouija Broads. And of course, we have our website at ouijabroads.com...
Devon: Yes.
Liz: ...where we will put all our show notes. So if you want to follow these links and learn about The Ancient One or about the treasure so that you can go, you know, look at the map and look at the, you know, compass north and all this crap, and what people have already figured out... You get on the case.
Devon: Do it. Do it.
Liz: Do it.
Devon: If you want the thrill of the chase...
Liz: Mmhmm?
Devon: To get on the case... You go to the place... Where the Broads never erase their data. That was my poem.
Liz: That was so beautiful. I can solve the riddle, and the riddle is that they should rate, review and subscribe on iTunes and Podbean. Um, we're now, I believe, also on Google Play. Or wherever you like getting podcasts.
Devon: Heyooo! Liz put us on the YouTube as well.
Liz: I also put us on YouTube. Yes. I just find a image that either Devon took or is public domain free to use. And I put all our audio on there. And then I know some people like to listen to podcasts on YouTube, and I support you in your journey.
Devon: Oh, you weirdo's. We love you.
Liz: Yup, we do. We want you to live weird--
Devon: Die weird--
Liz: And stay weird. Thank you so much for listening. Go find some treasure.
Devon: Find some treasure and tell me about it. I don't even need to have it. I just want to touch it for a minute.
Liz: You wanna see it! You want to put it in your mouth.
Devon: That's what she said.
[theme music fades in, plays to end]